A Conversation with Lenna Scheen, Assistant Professor of Literature
对话文学助理教授：Lenna Scheen
Lena
There was recently a Faculty Lunch Speaker Series talk about a construction site in Pudong that used to be the location of a 500-year-old temple. The speaker told about a group of old people who frequently visit the former temple site to pray and burn incense in front of the a wall that now surrounds the construction site. Fascinated by the varied stories that came up in her research on this site, I tracked her down for the following interview:
近一期的教师午餐交流会，聚焦在浦东地区的一个建筑工地上，那块地上曾经有一座500年历史的寺庙。演讲者告诉大家，现在仍有一些老人到建筑工地围墙外祈祷和焚香。对这块地方的研究过程中，见闻到很多故事，令这位演讲者十分着迷。我们对演讲者做了如下采访：
Please give a brief introduction of yourself.
请您简单地介绍一下自己吧。
My name is Lena Scheen. I’ve been working here since August 2012, since the opening of the portal campus of NYU Shanghai. I teach various courses on Shanghai, such as a course about fiction set in Shanghai from the last 100 years, a course on urban development in Shanghai, and one where we compare urban development issues in Shanghai and Detroit. I just published my new book on contemporary Shanghai literature, it’s called Shanghai Literary Imaginings: A City in Transformation.
我叫Lena Scheen。从2012年8月，也就是自上海纽约大学在上海成立起，我就在这里工作了。我教的课程有：上海近百年来的小说、上海城市发展，还有上海和底特律城市发展的比较。最近刚刚出版了一本关于上海现代文学的书，叫做《上海文学想象：一个转型中的城市》。
Listening to your talk and the description of your research made me think of storytelling. It seems like a lot of your work revolves around storytelling.
讲座中听到关于你对于你的研究的描述，让我想到了讲故事，感觉你的很多工作都是围绕着讲故事展开的。
That’s very true. I’m very interested in storytelling. Stories are the source of my research that explores the impact of Shanghai’s fast urbanization on both the individual and on society at large. I look at how the changing city is imagined in stories and how these imaginings express the mental and social impact of the recent transformation. For this I don’t make a distinction between fictional stories, official stories by the government or media, urban legends, oral history, or personal and family stories. I believe that all of these stories not only mirror or reflect the changing city, but also are themselves an intrinsic part of the urban transformation process. For the project of my talk, I look at the fictional and historical stories about this one particular place in Pudong. So, yes, storytelling is definitely the running thread of my research.
的确是这样。我对讲故事非常感兴趣。故事是我研究的源头，我探索上海快速的城市化对于个人和社会的影响。我着眼于研究故事是如何书写变化中的城市的，以及故事中的这些想象如何表达近期变革的精神和社会影响力。为此，我不区分虚构的故事、政府或媒体上官方的故事、城市传说、口口相传的历史，或者是个人和家庭的故事，我相信所有这些故事不仅仅反映或是投射了变化中的城市，更重要的是他们本来就是城市变革进程中不可或缺的一部分。我演讲提到的这个研究项目，就是着眼于浦东的这个建筑工地上的小说故事和历史故事。所以，的确，讲故事绝对是贯穿我研究的一条主线。
Does that make China an interesting place to do research? For example, the Cultural Revolution eliminated a lot of stories, or made some stories more important than others.
这就使得中国成为了一个值得研究的有意思的地方，对吗？比如，文化大革命抹去了很多的故事，或者说使一些故事变得更加重要了。
That’s an interesting point. Actually, the interesting thing about the Cultural Revolution is that it has created a sort of Black Hole in Chinese history. But because it’s not there, it’s very much there. Take one novel for example by Wang Anyi – The Song of Everlasting Sorrow – people say “well, she largely skips the Cultural Revolution”, but actually, the fact that the years of the Cultural Revolution are sort of skipped make them very present. I see this in a lot of fiction. What is interesting is that the Cultural Revolution tried to erase history, by literally destroying the “Four Olds”, but that now the Cultural Revolution itself is being erased. There is a collective amnesia. Yet it’s present in its absence. Although I have to say that there’s in fact a lot of fiction that does deal with the Cultural Revolution. Now, with the distance of time, we see people retelling the stories of the Cultural Revolution. Stories are erased and replaced by new stories. That’s what history is about.
很有意思的一点是，实际上，文化大革命在于它在中国的历史上创造了一个“黑洞”。但是由于那段历史不在那，却使得它更在那。用王安忆的一部小说 《长恨歌 》来举个例子，人们说“好吧，她很大程度上略过了对文化大革命的描写”。但是实际上，正是文化大革命的那些年某种程度上来说被跳过去了的这个事实，使得那些年仍一直存在于当下。我在很多的小说中都看到了这一点。有意思的是，文化大革命曾试图通过清除“四旧”抹去历史，而现在，文化大革命本身就被历史抹去了，这是集体失忆。然而，它就存在于历史的缺席中。事实上，有很多以文化大革命为主题的小说。现在，隔着时间的距离，我们看到很多人重新讲述文化大革命的故事。故事被抹去，然后被新的故事替代，这就是历史。
When you say that “it’s present in its absence” that is also true for the talk you did about the temple, how the construction site remains, but the temple is absent.
“它就存在于历史的缺席中”，这和你讲座中那座庙的情况类似，建筑工地在，但是庙已经不存在了。
Exactly. The physical temple is no longer there, but the fact that people still go to the site to pray makes it very present. I’m fascinated by the fact that if you go to the place, all you see is a white wall – with some characters – surrounding a construction site, a muddy hole in the ground. It’s a non-place that, only through the stories about it, becomes a place. All of these stories come out of this hole in the ground; this large, black hole. That’s what makes it so interesting! You’re standing in front of nothing with a wall around it, but then that nothing becomes a vessel containing all of these stories: personal stories, national stories, religious stories, myths.
是这样的。寺庙的实体已经不在那了，但是人们仍去那儿祈祷，使得寺庙仿佛还存在于当下。如果你去那儿，你能看见的就是一堵白墙，上面写着一些字，围着那个建筑工地，地上有一个大泥坑。这不能算是一个地方，直到有了故事，才能成为一个地方。所有的故事都源自于地上的这个大泥坑。这正是这个地方如此有意义的原因！你站在这个大坑前面，除了围着它的墙，其他什么都没有，但突然这“什么都没有”的坑变成了一个盛满了所有这些故事的大容器：个人的故事、国家的故事、国家的故事、还有神话。
If you have a place with a very clear narrative, let’s say the Yu Garden in the old town, where you see these beautiful structures – the nine zig-zag bridge, the old teahouse, the City God Temple – their histories are right in front of your eyes. You know the Yu Garden is located at what was once the center of the city, how long it’s been there, what the function of the buildings was. When you’re there you understand very clearly where you are. To me, that’s not as interesting, because it makes immediate sense. Whereas if you’re standing in front of the white wall around a construction site, you think it’s nothing, but because it’s not defined, or a given, that’s the reason it opens up to all of these stories.
如果一个地方有着非常清楚的定位，比如老城区的豫园，能看到那些优美的结构 - 九曲桥、老茶园、城隍庙 ，那些历史就都清晰地呈现在你眼前。你知道豫园曾经坐落在城市的中心，知道它存在的时间，知道那些建筑都是做什么用的。当你在那里的时候，你能很清楚的知道你在哪儿。对我来说，那一点都不好玩，因为太直观了。然而，当你站在一个环绕着建筑工地的白墙面前时，你认为那里什么都没有，但正是因为它没有被定义，或者说没有既定的概念，它才能由此对所有的故事敞开。
You mean that a place like the Yu Garden has a brand or a message that’s so loud or overpowering that it hides a lot of other stories.
你的意思是像豫园一样的地方，由于已经有了自己的品牌或者说是明确传递的信息，就会掩盖很多其他的故事吗？
Yes, exactly! I’m sure there are many fascinating stories that have nothing to do with the City God Temple or the Tea House or anything else we know about the Yu Garden. But they’re very difficult to see, because it’s such a marked place with a very clear meaning. That’s why this former temple site in Pudong fascinates me. I think that taking a place that doesn’t make sense at first glance forces you to really look into it, and make discoveries that wouldn’t ordinarily have come up. I didn’t have any preconceptions when I looked at it. I just happened to pass by and asked myself “what’s happening here?” I didn’t know it was going to turn into a research project. I was just curious, but it was the place itself that told me these stories. It kept telling me stories, and it’s still telling me stories. I sometimes feel as if this city is talking to me and all I have to do is listen.
是的，你说的太对了！我确信与豫园相关的很多吸引人的故事和城隍庙、茶园，或者其他我们知道的和豫园相关的东西无关。但是那些故事都太难被发现了，因为豫园是一个已然被清晰定义的一个地方。反之，这构成了浦东的这个寺庙旧址吸引我的原因。我认为一个地方第一眼看上去没什么意义的话，反而会促使你真正看向其中，并且能够发现日常里不会发现的一些情况。当我看向这个地方的时候，我没有任何的先入为主的概念。我只是恰好路过，并且问我自己“这儿发生了什么？”我当时并不知道这会最终成为我的一个研究项目。我只是单纯的好奇而已，是这个地方本身给我讲述了这些故事。它一直在给我讲故事。我有时觉得这个城市正在对我诉说着故事，我所需要做的就是倾听。
Does it excite you or frustrate you?
这个地方带给你兴奋还是沮丧呢？
Oh my god, it fascinates me endlessly. You have scientists or academics who get introduced to a topic and get really fascinated by that one topic. I’m someone who can get excited about anything. I’m always fascinated by things that seem random or uninteresting at first sight, but then turn out to be very interesting.
哦，这个地方不断地让我着迷。通常科学家或者学术研究者初次了解了一个话题之后，可能就会深深地痴迷于那个话题。我是一个可能对任何事情产生兴趣的人。我经常被一些随机出现的，或者第一眼觉得很无聊，但是后来发现很有趣的事情所吸引。
Any object can be fascinating if you really look into it. If you look at this bottle cap [points at the cap of a plastic water bottle, red.], it’s nothing interesting. But then you think, isn’t it fascinating that across the world we all use the same system to cap bottles? Everywhere in the world we use this system with this screw. There must be different ways to cap bottles, yet we all use this particular one! So then I think, when did they start using it? Who designed it? Are there people now inventing new ways? Then I ask, how is it produced? Where does the plastic come from? What happens to it when we throw it away? Then you get into environmental topics, which is yet another whole new, interesting area.
如果你真的深入了解，任何事物都可以非常迷人。比如你看这个瓶盖（指向一瓶矿泉水的红色瓶盖），它没什么特别的。但是如果你想，世界上所有的瓶盖都是一样的，这难道不神奇吗？世界上其他的地方也使用这种旋转的瓶盖。其实一定有其他的方法盖住瓶子，但是我们都在用这一种！然后我就想，他们是什么时候开始用这个方法的呢？是谁设计出来的呢？人们现在有在研发新的方法吗？我还会问，瓶盖是怎么生产出来的呢？这些塑料都是哪里来的呢？我们把它扔了以后会怎么样呢？这样就又转换到了环境话题，就又是一个全新的有趣的领域了。
Is it easy to convince the old people who still come to the former temple site to give you their stories?
让仍旧去寺庙旧址的老人们讲故事容易吗？
No, it’s not. As I said, at first I didn't know this was going to be a research project. I was intrigued by what was happening and started visiting them more and more often. The more stories they told me, the more interested I became. That’s when I realized there was a research project. But in order to begin my actual research, I have to get to know them and they have to get to know me. I am literally just hanging out with them three or four times a month. If you don’t build trust, people don’t show you everything or tell you everything. Everyone is vulnerable, these stories are about vulnerability, you have to take that very seriously.
当然不容易。正如我说的那样，一开始我不知道自己会把它变成一个研究项目。我被这个地方迷住了，于是越来越频繁的去拜访那些老人。他们告诉我的故事越多，我就越感兴趣。这时我意识到了这可以成为一个研究项目。为了开始我的实际研究，我必须了解他们，他们也需要了解我。我每个月特地安排三到四次和他们的聚会。如果你们无法建立信任，人们就不会把所有的都告诉你。人都是有弱点的，而这些故事都是围绕着人的弱点的，你必须正视这一点。
Do you think that if you want their story you have to tell your story?
如果你想知道他们的故事，你就得先给他们讲你的故事，是吗？
Yes, I do. As an academic, you’re supposed to maintain a distance and objectivity to your research subject, but when it comes to ethnographic research, when you’re dealing with people, you need to bring yourself in. You can’t deny that I’m a white European asking them for their stories. If I were Shanghainese, it would have been very different. It already makes a difference in how they talk to me, how I look at them, my research approach, how I write about it. My framework is informed by my upbringing in Europe, both as a person and professionally.
是的，我认为是这样的。做研究就是，与研究对象保持一定的距离，对研究持有清晰的目的，但是当涉及到人类研究时，当你和人打交道的时候，需要把自己也带入其中。不能否认我是一个想知道他们故事的欧洲白人。如果我是上海人，一切就会很不一样。他们和我说话的方式、我如何看待他们、我的研究方式，我怎么写，都由于我是一个欧洲的学者而显得很不一样。
Then, on top of that, for me to expect them to open up and give their story, I do feel I have to give my story as well. I think it’s the only respectful way to deal with people’s stories. They are alive, this is their daily life. This is something they deeply care about. They’re very emotional about it, anxious about it. Sometimes angry, sometimes sad, happy. If I didn’t share my story, they wouldn't trust me, and I wouldn’t feel good about it. This also means that you need to invest a lot of time in building that relationship. I’ve been following them since March and still haven’t started the official interviews.
而最重要的是，我期待他们对我敞开心怀讲述他们的故事，我也应该告诉他们我的故事。我认为这是尊重别人的故事的唯一方式。他们是活着的，这是他们的日常生活，这是他们非常在意的事情。他们当然会敏感和焦虑。有时愤怒，有时悲伤，有时快乐。如果我不分享我的故事，他们就不会信任我，我也不会感到好受的。这意味着需要花很多的时间来建立关系。我从去年三月开始就一直在和他们接触，还没有开始正式采访。
If you extrapolate it beyond ethnography, trying to extract a story from someone is much more difficult than trying to get money from them. Do you agree?
从别人那里要钱比从别人那里得到一个故事要难得多，你同意吗？
Yes, it is. It’s not a transaction. You can’t say “I give you A, you give me B”. The only way to have people spontaneously, from the heart, telling you their stories, is to win and deserve their trust and to know how to listen.
是的，是这样的。这不是一项交易。你不能说“我给你甲，你给我乙。”唯一使人自发地、发自内心地讲述他们故事的方法就是赢得他们的信任，并且懂得如何去倾听。
It teaches empathy?
这个过程教会了你同理心？
Yes, it needs empathy and time. Sometimes you meet someone and the first night you tell your whole life story. That’s a matter of chemistry between two people. Most of the time it’s only the people you’ve known the longest, your family, your friends. When I first met these people, in their eyes I was an “American”, “rich”, “influential”, “powerful”. It took a long time to convince them I’m not the image they had of me. I’m not American, I’m certainly not powerful in the way they think I am. They literally said to me “can’t you just call the Dutch embassy and tell them we need the temple to be rebuilt?” and I said “It doesn’t work that way, even if I were very powerful, I couldn’t just make a call to the Dutch embassy. Even the Dutch embassy doesn’t have that kind of power!”
是的，这需要同理心和时间。有时你遇见一个人，第一晚你就可以告诉他，你一生所有的故事。那是两个人之间产生的化学反应。但大多数的时候只有你了解最久的那些人，你的家庭和朋友才会对你敞开心怀。在我遇到的很多人眼里，他们认为我是一个“美国人”，“有钱”，“有名“，“厉害”。我花了很长的时间说服他们，我不是他们认为的那个样子。我不是美国人，我也不是他们认为的那种很厉害的人。他们特地对我说“你就不能给荷兰大使馆打电话告诉他们，我们需要重建这个庙吗？”，我说“事情不是这样的，即使我非常有厉害，也不能就直接打电话去荷兰大使馆。即使是荷兰大使馆也没有那样的权利！”
How do you convince your students that a story about a former temple site is important?
你是如何说服学生们关于寺庙旧址的故事是很重要的呢？
I try not to tell students why something is interesting or important, I don’t believe they should be interested in anything. I ask them questions that forces them to think about why something could be interesting and then I teach them on the possible ways to find the answers. It’s only after they have searched for the answers that they can conclude for themselves whether or not it’s important.
我试着不告诉学生们为什么一件事情很有趣或者很重要。我不认为他们应该要对什么事情感兴趣。我问他们一些问题，激发他们思考为什么某件事情可以很有趣，同时，我教他们能够找到答案的各种方法。只有他们自己试着寻找过答案，才能自己判断究竟这件事情重不重要。
I actually took one of my classes to the former temple site. And when we were standing in front of the wall with the handwritten characters “Here used to be the Qi Jia Temple” on it, and with the stains of burned candles and incense on the ground, I asked them questions like “What are these stains on the ground?”, “Look at this wall, what do you see?”, “Who do you think wrote this text on it?”, “Why would they have done that?” Then they started to guess and guess. They started to fantasize possible stories. That’s when I told them about the place. By that time, they were already hooked, they really wanted to know the answers.
我带过一个班的学生去过那个寺庙的旧址。当我们站在手写的“这里曾经是七甲(音译)寺”的墙边时，看着地上的蜡烛和香焚烧过的痕迹，我问学生们一些问题，比如“地上的那些痕迹是什么？“，”看着这面墙的时候，你想到了什么？“，“你认为谁在墙上写的这些字？”， ”为什么他们要那么做呢？“。 于是他们就开始猜啊猜。他们开始编故事。然后我才告诉他们关于这个地方的情况。那时他们就已经上钩了，他们真的很想知道答案。
It’s much easier to convince students of the importance of something when you have raised their curiosity. By answering the questions raised on this site, they learned about the religious history of Pudong through the story of the temple and the church that stands right behind it, the history of Shanghai’s battles with the wokou pirates as the temple was built in honor of the Ming general Qi Jiguang, the history of the Communist Party as the famous communist spy Li Bai was killed in front of the temple, and of course they learned about Pudong’s urban transformation. It’s this richness of the history of this seemingly random site that hopefully convinced them of its importance. That’s what the talk at the Faculty Lunch Speaker Series was all about!
在你引起了学生们的好奇心之后，就更容易说服他们某件事情很重要了。通过回答关于这个地方的一些问题，他们从这座寺庙和它后面那座教堂的故事里，学习到了关于浦东的宗教历史，了解到了这座寺庙是为了纪念明代抗倭将军戚继光而建的，还有著名的共产党特工李白是在这座寺庙前被杀害的。同时，他们也了解到了浦东的城市发展变化。这个看上去很随意的地方有那么丰富的历史。我希望这些历史能让他们意识到这里的重要性。这也就是我在教师午餐交流会上所讲述的。
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